2009-06-01

A True Christian

Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 7:1-2


For those unaware, George Tiller, a doctor who performed late-term abortions was shot and killed at a church where he was working as an usher. He was killed by Scott Roeder, who apparently was not a fan of Dr. Tiller's occupation. Mr. Roeder had apparently attended the church three or four times prior to this event, I guess scoping out the place, the church which Tiller attended.

Dr. Tiller performed late-term abortions. Late-term abortions are usually defined as an abortion done after 20 weeks gestation. In America late-term abortion is a hot issue, but typically speaking, there are only 1,032 late term abortions performed each year. Of course this is an estimate. We really don't know, but we can say for the most part most abortions are done in earlier stages of gestation. It isn't a pretty picture on how late-term abortion is done, but most surgery isn't pretty.

Late-term abortions usually aren't for those who have decided they don't want a baby, but rather due to medical issues. Yes it is more than just tissue at that point, I can attest to that due to my own personal experience. It has to be a difficult decision, not something done lightly or as birth control as so many "pro-lifers" claim. With all that being said, I am all for abortion, I don't say use it for birth control, but a woman should have the right to choose. I couldn't do it myself, but maybe if circumstances were different, I might not have a choice.

Now Dr. Tiller in his past has had his clinic bombed, has been shot in both his arms, and attacked for well over 20 years. This man has been a target for many years, as not many doctors for ethical and just plain safety reasons will not perform this type of procedure. This man was shot while attending church by a man who claimed to be a fellow Christian.

Now I try to understand the pro-life folks, I really do, I understand that for me, I could not have an abortion, but labeling those who are pro-choice as pro-death is a bit sickening to me. People like this to me show no compassion and cannot or will not fully understand the complexities of the abortion argument. Referring to this man as a baby killer or mass murderer is sickening to me as well. This man did not perform late-term abortions exclusively at his clinic. This man provided other services as well. All the name calling to me is a way to deflect from the real issues of abortion.

What is making me mad is these same people are now not sure Scott Roeder was a "true Christian". These same people calling people pro-death, baby killer, and mass murderer, are now turning their back on a man who sided with them. What is even more pathetic and sad and that Dr. Tiller was killed in church while doing work as an usher at service.

Being that Dr. Tiller was in church, I am sure he defined himself as a Christian, even if many who also label themselves as Christians do not. I am sure Mr. Roeder identifies as a Christian as well:

"Bleass [sic] everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp. Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organise as many people as possible to attend Tillers [sic] church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller."


So my question is this, what defines a "true" Christian? What are the specific rules and guidelines that make one "Christian"? Is being a "true Christian" subject to specific rules and guidelines? As a former Baptist, I am taught we are all born sinners, so you have to work at being a Christian. How do these various bloggers know they are "true Christians", especially the ones who refer to Dr. Tiller as a "baby killer" and "mass murderer"? Are they themselves sinning by judging and condemning Dr. Tiller? Are there different levels of sins? Is justifying their sin ok, because in some minds Dr. Tiller's "sin" was worse? Did Roeder justify his own sin? How is it decided that Roeder is no longer a Christian, or never was a Christian?

24 comments:

dtbz said...

I grew up in the Baptist Church too. I found as I became older things are really good if you listen to what is told to you. Do not think for yourself. Please don't question anything. The late term abortion is a very difficult issues. Walking in and murdering someone isn't. I really don't know "what a true christian" is or who is. I would think Ghandi who wasn't a christian was more of a christian. If you do think of yourself as a christian then someone of higher authority will decided what we have done on earth is worthy or not worthy. Are all the Christian Conservative GOP members true Christians? They don't seem to want to help the poor or the needy. I don't think that is very christian of them. I know I can't say for sure who is or isn't or what makes you one or not. I think talking about it and saying you are doesn't mean a thing at all. Live it.

JacqueRoxx said...

This actually happened in my city...so sad. And he got killed in a place of worship? Even sadder.

underOvr (aka The U) said...

Siditty,

I get what you're asking, "what defines a "true" Christian?...". I think any attempt to answer or define who qualifies as a Christian fails to understand what is the measure of grace.

I understand that Christianity teaches that none are worthy and yet in spite of that reality grace is extended to all. Claiming to be a Christian doesn't make one better than others. Being a Christian doesn't mean one is smarter, kinder, better looking, more talented or better off. Using Christianity to justify one's spiritual position only demonstrates one's futility and ignorance in understanding and appreciating the measure of grace one has been given.

U

G said...

Good question.

I'm not sure who or what a "true Christian" is. I would like to think that for the time being, both my children are.

One could look at the traditional (or literal) definition of a Christian and say that a true Christian is one who follows Christ.

One could also say that a true Christian is one that makes a good effort to put into practice the teachings of Christ.

After spending two plus years in the chat rooms, I find that 98% of the people who profess to be true Christians, really aren't. They sort of practice what they preach, as opposed to practicing what was written or taught.

The other 2% are either ones who actually try to follow the teaching of Christ, or following a different faith and apply some of the tenets of Christianity to their beliefs.

As for me, I really can't call myself a true Christian, simply because while I may have been raised in a particular faith (Methodist), I certainly don't follow or practice all the teachings/tenets of the faith.

I think I would call myself a "Realist" when it comes to religion.

isityouorme? said...

it's interesting that you posted that quote from Matthew 7:1-2. I have made that my personal mantra. As to the question about what makes a true Christian, a person who reads the four gospels in the New Testament, as well as the writings of Paul and the other apostles and applies this information to their life is a Christian. That is what I was taught anyway. The problem with Christianity is that there are so many different denominations. A Roman Catholic, Methodist, and Lutheran are all very different even though many of their core beliefs are the same. What happened to Dr. George Tiller was wrong. I hope that the person responsible is brought to justice.

Max Reddick said...

Christ needs to hold a big meeting and have a good long talk with some of his people. At this rate, they are going to scare any potential converts away.

It is evident this guy was perhaps not all ther, and further, it appeared he hid his own delusions behind his religion. The scary thing is how many more so-called Christians out there suffering from the same delusions?

brohammas said...

As a member of a church with Jesus's name in it, that is nonetheless rejected as Christian by most all other Christian denominations, I say anyone who believes in Jesus as the son of God can claim themselves to be Christian.
Being a believer does not mean you are any good at following said beliefs or teachings.
One cane be Christian and be a horrible person. One cannot be a murderer and be a follower of Christ's teachings.

Mr. Noface said...

A true Chrisitian?

The Bible says you will know them by their fruit, which is to say you'll be able to tell if a person is a Christian (or at least acting in a true Christian manner) by his/her actions done in love.

In considering this tragedy, we can tell who was acting like a Chrisitian would act and who was not.

@Max Reddick

Yeah, there is talk that this person was schizophrenic and the people around him (the pro-life organization that he attached himself to) were not able to discern his mental illness.

Anonymous said...

the bible defines a christian as anyone who accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior period. I personally don't believe in abortion, but I don't believe in judging people either.

Anonymous said...

I honestly don't think Jesus would have shot someone for getting/giving an abortion.

Debra J.M. Smith said...

Obama said, "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence." --If Obama only cared that much about the countless babies who died at the hands of that abortionist...

A family member said, "Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients. This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace." Wow, how about the wombs that all of those babies were in? The womb is supposed to be a safe place of peace for a baby. But that monster would intrude and kill each one of them, with no remorse.

And I do not feel sorry for a family who loved a murderer. And I sure do NOT feel sorry for a church that had no problem allowing a murderer to attend.

Debra J.M. Smith
of
www.InformingChristians.com

Mimi said...

What's really funny to me is that the people who claim to be "pro-life" are the same people who supported the war in Iraq in which thousands of actual lives were killed. Imagine that.

So embryos are worth more then actual human beings now?

Siditty said...

I found as I became older things are really good if you listen to what is told to you.

Yeah questions are shunned in the Baptist religion. About anything.

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sing Christianity to justify one's spiritual position only demonstrates one's futility and ignorance in understanding and appreciating the measure of grace one has been given.


I'm not using Christianity to justify my spiritual position. My position at this point is probably set in stone, I don't need any religion or lack there of to justify my beliefs.

What I am asking is, what is the true definition of a Christian? I grew up a Christian, but I am not a Christian now, so I know for me growing up being a Christian meant adhering to the Bible, believing in God, his son, and the Holy Spirit, and living as you feel Jesus would want you to. I found as I got older I am not able to adhere to all tenets of the Bible and most the people in this world do not and can not. So even if you live to the best of your ability, you cannot be completely sin free, of course Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins and we are all born sinners.


I am wondering Dr. Tiller thought he was probably living to the best of his ability to adhere to these tenets and probably viewed his job as helping women, not murdering babies. Scott Roeder probably felt that by killing Dr. Tiller he was adhering to the tenets of the Bible, his own view of "eye for an eye". Prior to his murdering Dr. Tiller, I am sure people didn't question his Christianity. I am sure prior to Dr. Tiller opening his clinic or performing abortions folks didn't refer to him as a "baby killer" or "mass murderer".


I want to know how do we know these people aren't Christians, and how do we know that the so called Christians judging these very people are "true Christians"?


Is Randall Terry a better Christian by saying Tiller "reaped what he sowed"?
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They sort of practice what they preach, as opposed to practicing what was written or taught.

I think that should scare people of all religions. Do they really know what is taught? What scares me about abortion and what used to confuse me about the issue is that the Bible does not mention abortion. It mentions miscarriage though. If a man harms a pregnant woman and she miscarries he should be subject to a fine, if he kills the woman, he should be punished with death.

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Christ needs to hold a big meeting and have a good long talk with some of his people. At this rate, they are going to scare any potential converts away.

I definitely agree.

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One cane be Christian and be a horrible person. One cannot be a murderer and be a follower of Christ's teachings.

But isn't sin, simply sin? As a murderer you sinned, just like someone who committed adultery, or didn't keep the Sabbath holy, or steal. Why is it a murderer isn't a true Christian?

Siditty said...

The Bible says you will know them by their fruit, which is to say you'll be able to tell if a person is a Christian (or at least acting in a true Christian manner) by his/her actions done in love.
< br>

I sometimes think people forget that.


----------------

If Obama only cared that much about the countless babies who died at the hands of that abortionist...

So have determined that since Obama has not banned or made a strong stance against abortion, he doesn't care about babies. Maybe his definition of what life begins is different than yours.


Wow, how about the wombs that all of those babies were in? The womb is supposed to be a safe place of peace for a baby. But that monster would intrude and kill each one of them, with no remorse.

And I do not feel sorry for a family who loved a murderer. And I sure do NOT feel sorry for a church that had no problem allowing a murderer to attend.


Your lack of compassion baffles me. You don't feel sorry for his family? Even if you don't agree with what HE DID, his family did not personally perform abortions, so you show no empathy or compassion for their loss, or the members of his church? Wow.


He wasn't a monster. The man who killed him was a monster. A person lacking compassion is a monster. It is sad and pathetic to say such harsh and cruel things.
-----------


What's really funny to me is that the people who claim to be "pro-life" are the same people who supported the war in Iraq in which thousands of actual lives were killed. Imagine that.

Double standards for people like that don't exist.

jamesthegirl28 said...

Oh Siditty, please don't even acknowledge that crazy-ass Randall Terry. I go to Notre Dame, and that dude was fucking nuts. I saw him on the corner protesting a couple of days before school got out and his wife and children looked like those people they rescued from that Fundamentalist compound last year. For someone who "respects life" so damn much, he sure has no qualms about mailing dead fetuses or throwing them at people. I am 100% pro-life (though I don't think abortion will ever be illegal and I don't think making it illegal will solve anything) but I refuse to associate with those people because they are batshit crazy.

Anonymous said...

I'm just gonna come out and say it. Debra J.M. Smith is a monster. You've only "informed" me that you know nothing of Christianity and support acts of terrorism. God help your empty soul and hope he shows you more compassion than you show other humans upon your day of judgement. Maybe you will meet Randall Terry on the way to Hell.

t-hype said...

geez louise! nothing like an anonymous 'hero' to come spoil the party...

siditty, you always ask good questions on your blog, so I'll take the bait. ;)

I think it's great that you linked Matthew 7:1 with 7:2, which is the one that puts the whole dang thing in context, but most people leave it out of the picture.

This insane guy judged Tiller as a murderer, and according to the Bible which he supposedly holds so dear, based on his own actions, he himself will be judged as a murder before God. On that tip, Jesus was very clear. And it is, ultimately, as one of the other posters mentioned, about God's grace.

Christ is telling us, do not discount God's grace toward other people. Our judgment is in some sense spitting on the grace that God has afforded all of mankind. (People do this all the time with the homosexual community.)

How Tiller could stand before God every Sunday with late-term abortions as a ongoing pillar of his career I have no idea but I also trust that God will deal with him. I'm not his Father, God is.

I don't know that you can ever define a "true Christian". The Bible is pretty clear about true religion and worthless religion in the book of James. [ref]

Anonymous said...

If you don't like what I have to say... well, too bad. I wasn't aware registration was required to have a valid opinion. Least of all when registering opens you up to email stalking from wingnuts.

Anonymous said...

I love when so called CHristians, (Debra JM Smith), come with all their self rightous bullshit talk about babies being murdered, but then turn around and applaud another human being being murdered. If you are such a Christian and was so against murder wouldn't you just be against anykind of violence? Do you really think Jesus is looking at you proudly because you advocated murder for that poor man. THen you even have the nerve to say disrespectful words about his family. THey have not done anything to deserve your venomous tongue. Those wombs were not yours. Do you know every circumstance in which those abortions took place? You going to adopt those born to parents who may not want them. You must be the right wing because you people think you have all the solutions to everything but yet you fuck up everything in your path. It's not your body, you don't get to make decisons for anyone that you have no rights over. You would be no differnt than the Romans who killed the Jesus you claim to love so much. YOu don't know Jesus. You could not know him if you feel that kind of uncaring unsympathetic feeling about a man being murdered in your beloved house of the Lord. I am not religious but I do not celebrate the death of a human being. I don't praise it. Although I do want to hurt the religious right at times. I consider alot of you monsters. You show no kindness, no compassion or charity most times. What hypocrits. The next time you are standing in front of an abortion clinic harassing patients and workers. Tell those women who want to abort that you will happily raise their babies. Since you know exactly what decisions a person should make with their life.

SIMONE

Anonymous said...

let people believe what they want ot believe, i'll never understand the atheist-agnostic-christian-jewish-muslim debate, what's the point in debating something you can never prove??? Until you're dead you aint' gonna know for sure, so what's the point. believe what you believe, hinduism, buddhism as long as you respect other people who cares?? this whole thing is getting tired...

Siditty said...

let people believe what they want ot believe, i'll never understand the atheist-agnostic-christian-jewish-muslim debate, what's the point in debating something you can never prove??




No one is debating religion. I am asking what makes a "true Christian" since I am seeing certain comments telling certain folks they aren't true Christians. I don't think the Bible clearly defines it and I wanted to know what to you makes a good Christian. I cannot waiver someone's belief, as they cannot waiver mine.

FunkyStarkitty50 said...

I grew up Baptist as well and as I got older, I began to see the hypocrisy in the church. True Christianity is about accepting everyone and treating people in the same way as Christ would. But so many times religion gets twisted by people who want to manipulate it for their purposes and twist the interpretation to suit their insecurities. Who is anyone to say that you are going to Hell? I just got sick of going to churches who condemn other religions and say they are going to Hell because they don't believe what "so-called" Christians do. I think that you can love God and have a personal relationship with God, but be totally against the concept of organized religion.

Nallama said...

You see religion in all its form is about if I can do this this and this I can get to heaven and have eternal peace, All religion including christianity when not taught properly or a basic lack of understanding is poisonous to people because it tries to control people.

I guess you could call me a christian for labelling sake but I don't really consider myself one, just that I have a personal relationship with christ.

Jesus didn't come to earth to start a new religion he came to reconcile us to a relationship with God that was lost.

I know I'm preaching here but thats not what I want to do.

A true christian is someone who loves christ and understands what he's done and lives according to his word in total love for others.

Now, I 'm gonna do a bit of a critique here cos so many people take that scripture you've quoted out of context.

It does not say do not judge any body's sin or terrible acts so that you won't get the same judgment.

It is talking about do not put your own narrow human judgmental thinking, already deciding somebody's fate and character about people because only God knows what is in their heart.

and if you read the scripture after that it says why do you try to pick the speck out of your brothers eye... Do not think you have the authority to determine a man's heart by your own understanding.

I like your blog and am a regular reader thanks

Anonymous said...

Hi Nallama. I am not a religious person. However I do believe in a higher power. I won't get into the details. But I really like your explanation of what Jesus's purpose was. When I was in church as a younger person. I was always always taught that Jesus loves everyone. NO MATTER WHAT. I was told he even loved the murderers and theives. I used to question that as a child, but my step dad really sat down and took the time out to explain God to me. That is what I keep with me. The goodness and love that I learned. I have always felt man's tampering ruined religion's true purpose. Okay I will just say completely fucked it up.Now people think they can tell you what to do in the name of GOd and the bible. That is why I say I only believe in a higher power now. I am and never will be comfortable in going back to church. There are alot of good people out there who don't have any religion at all. In saying all that. The story of Jesus still moves me and for those people who really believe in what he tried to accomplish as a man on earth,I can see why they have such strong faiths. I dont knock them at all. I have been critized for not believeing what happens with him when he dies,the whole going dying and being brought back to life. I dont believe that. I do have love in my heart for his actions on earth.

Plus I was telling this one conservative guy I dated breifly last summer If there was a man today who lived and did just as Jesus had done 2000 years ago. The OH SO RELIGIOUS RIGHT would be calling him all kinds of hippies, drug addicts and terrorist. I believe that with all the cells in my body.

SIMONE